Opening Statement by Mel White

Homosexuality and the Church

Opening Statement by Mel White

Neil Boron: This is the Thursday edition of Lifeline. My name is Neil Boron. I look forward to talking with you this afternoon. We've got an interesting conversation planned. Mel White will be with us. Mel White is a homosexual, he is a former ghost writer for a number of prominent evangelicals, including Jerry Falwell, Reverend Billy Graham, Reverend Pat Robertson, and others. A man who grew up in a conservative Christian home who says he struggled with his homosexual orientation throughout his life, and who only recently came to be at peace with himself.

He says that he is a homosexual who is loved by God and loved in his homosexuality. He left his wife several years ago and his children behind and now lives with his gay lover. He is also dean of a place called the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, Texas. I believe it is the largest gay congregation in the world.

Also joining us this first hour is the Reverend John Rankin of the Theological Education Institute. John Rankin is a name you should remember. He was in town recently to have a dialogue with Dr. Paul Kurtz, the renowned secular humanist at the University of Buffalo, and editor of Free Inquiry magazine. John Rankin conducts what are called Mars Hill Forums around the country, where he talks with people of prominence on various issues of concern to the Christian community, and conducts dialogues, pointing out from his perspective what the Bible has to say on some of these very controversial and hotly contested issues. Reverend John Rankin is director of the Theological Education Institute in Connecticut. John, it's good to have you with us as well.

John Rankin: Thank you.

Neil: Tell us very briefly in a sentence or two what the Theological Education Institute is.

John: Well simply, it's a private school I teach here in the Northeast and elsewhere seeking to bring the fruit of a seminary education to lay people. So I do that within the churches. And secondly, as you're familiar, I'm conducting a series of Mars Hill Forums on campuses across the country where my goal is to invite people who would challenge my worldview in some fashion or another, to give me the three toughest questions, unrehearsed, they think I need to grapple with. I respond, we interact, and we try to deal with substantive issues, but in a spirit that's both gracious and hospitable.

Neil: I appreciate you being part of the conversation this afternoon. We're going to go ahead and talk with Mel White for awhile about his book, Stranger at the Gate, and about his life story. If you'll just sit quietly by I'd appreciate that and we'll have you join the conversation just a little bit later.

Mel, it's good to have you with us. I've read your book. It's an interesting story to say the least. This issue of homosexuality is something you say has been a part of your life or something you have struggled with from about the time you can remember. Is that correct?

Mel White: From the very beginning. Yes, pubescence began the wonderful adventure of trying to figure out what it means to be gay and Christian.

Neil: Just at the beginning, here, and I don't mean to divert from your story, but you use the term gay. Is there is a reason you refer to yourself as gay rather than homosexual?

Mel: Either term is acceptable to me.

Neil: The reason I say that is because recently we had someone on the program who made a distinction. I didn't know if it was a popular distinction or not, saying the term "gay" is generally used by those who are out of the closet as opposed to those who call themselves "homosexual" being those who would be still in the closet.

Mel: No, that's an old wive's fable, or an old husband's fable. The fact is that we go by either term happily.

Neil: Give us a brief rundown on your life story as far as growing up in evangelical circles, because you say you were raised in a conservative Christian home.

Mel: Yes, my father was the mayor of Santa Cruz. My mother was a speech therapist in the city schools. And Dad was the head of the board of deacons and had studied for the ministry himself. My mother was a very strong leader in the church, and choir director in the church and Sunday School superintendent. And so we grew up in a very happy Christian family, with parents that I couldn't fault in any way, they were just terrific. Every time the church doors were open I was there and we loved it. So that I look back on my childhood and young adolescence as being grateful to God for the wonderful, warm family unit.

However, they didn't know anything about homosexuality. And in those days, this is in the forties, they didn't talk about it in the churches, as they are doing now, or on the radio programs where they're condemning gays and lesbians all the time. So it was a much more subtle kind of condemnation. And I grew up at 12 and 13 wondering about what it was to be a sodomite and thinking that I was certainly condemned by God for even having these thoughts, wanting to hold hands with my little boyfriends instead of my little girlfriends. And so during that entire time I struggled with the issue, trying to know what it meant to be gay and Christian, not knowing that that journey would take me over thirty years through every kind of therapy, including electric shock and exorcism, trying to get over a homosexual orientation that I finally discovered was a gift from God, just like heterosexual orientation is.

Neil: At one point in the book you refer to your parents as victims of ancient misinformation about homosexuality.

Mel: I think most of the people who are anti-gay or anti-lesbian now are to be understood as people who have been given so much misinformation over their own lifetime, that it is very difficult to deal with this question reasonably or with any kind of openness. And I think my folks, though they are very supportive now, now that they have really studied the issue and have joined PFLAG [Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and have tried to come around to what it really means to be a homosexual in terms of sexual orientation. Now they are very supportive. When I first told them they were confounded and confused and horrified.

Neil: The book seems to indicate that at least at the writing of the book, they were not in favor of your gay lifestyle. Am I correct?

Mel: Gay lifestyle is not a term.... Gays and lesbians of course have all kinds of lifestyles, just like heterosexuals do. That kind of indicates by its very reference that lifestyle is something you choose. Sexual orientation is not something you choose. And what they were upset about was that they thought it was a lifestyle choice. So it took them the last year and half of prayer and discussion and being with people who were understanding of the lesbian and gay issue, to come around to see that we lesbians and gays don't choose this. It is something that we have to learn to embrace and love and be grateful to God for and live with integrity. Once they understood that their son didn't have a choice either, then they became very supportive of helping me live my life with integrity.

Neil: There is much disagreement, I will point out as well, on the question of whether or not homosexuals are born that way or become that way, obviously you feel....

Mel: There's not much disagreement actually with anybody who has studied it from either scientific or psychological or medical. The only disagreement is from people who start out thinking it's bad to be gay. There is no scientific proof, that's for sure. But almost everyone with responsible credentials says that sexual orientation either is determined in the first few years of childhood and infancy, or in the womb.

Neil: You concentrate on the words "sexual orientation". Is there a reason as opposed to perhaps "sexual preference"?

Neil: Yeah, if there were a sexual preference.... Of course I spent 35 years not preferring to be gay. I was one of the founders of the ex-gay movement and thought for a long time, bought into that misunderstanding, that it is something you choose or don't choose. You don't choose it, therefore you can't say sexual preference because there is no preference. It is from God. You accept it and live it with integrity, or you fight and be confused and feel guilty all your life.

Neil: You mentioned encounters with individuals throughout your life. There was Gordon, as I recall. I'm looking for some other names, Jeffrey and Ted. Men, boys I guess, who you felt some affection for and perhaps they felt some for you as well, although I guess at that point in your life you hadn't given in to your desires, as you say. But later in your life you finally had a homosexual encounter and gave in to your feelings with a man named Mark. Can you describe your delving in, your jumping in, and taking part in something that you had for so long turned your back on?

Mel: Yeah, "giving in" is an interesting word. That makes you feel like "giving in", as we Evangelicals would say, they give in to temptation or give in to sin. In fact, there's a heterosexual "give in" when he or she becomes a healthy sexual person. For me, it was the denying of my own sexual orientation. It was refusing to hold hands at 13 and 14 with another boy, or refusing to date another young boy when I'm 16 and he's 17. It's trying desperately to be celibate for all those 35 years and succeeding by the grace of God and by the fingers hanging on to the window ledge. So that when I finally realized that my sexual orientation, too, is a gift, then I had to find the most appropriate ways to exercise that gift.

And gay and lesbian Christians believe that sexual orientation should be exercised only in the context of healthy, loving, committed relationships, just like heterosexuals do. Although I felt awful and ugly about sexual orientation that was homo because I thought it was so evil.

Now I've been in a ten-year loving, committed relationship with Gary, my partner. And for us now it's just another wonderful gift from God to us, and another way to bring intimacy to what we feel, and commitment to each other.

Neil: Let me read just a very brief portion from the book about an experience you had with a fellow named Gordon, who I think was on the track team with you in high school. You had walked into the woods with him up the side of a mountain and you described the encounter this way. You say:

"He looked as nervous and as unsure as I was feeling, but he took my bag out of his hand, lowered it to the ground, took me in his arms and kissed me. I could have died and gone to heaven on the spot. Roman candles went off in my brain and my heart nearly burst from excitement. For a moment we hugged awkwardly, then in spite of my desires I began to pull away. Even though I felt at home in my body for the very first time, even though Gordon's embrace was natural, good, and right, even though I know now that God was laughing with delight at my newfound pleasure, my adolescent guilt and fear levels skyrocketed off the top of the charts."

Do you perceive that God is pleased with homosexuality? Obviously you can't consider it a sin in your perspective.

Mel: I am so convinced that my sexual orientation, like yours, is a gift from God. Gordon was a gift for me. I was an adolescent, it was appropriate behavior for young adolescents. If that was a young boy and a girl in the redwoods, to hold each other and to kiss each other would have been the most appropriate and celebrated kind of act. But because we feel all this misinformation about homosexuality, we see that as a kind of ugly act. Whereas in fact, once you understand and embrace your sexual orientation, whether gay or straight, those adolescent behaviors are wonderful, and again I think from God.

Neil: You have an interesting viewpoint on the Leviticus account of what happened at Sodom and Gomorrah. Could you share that with us?

Mel: Well, the passage about Sodom of course is in Genesis, and the Leviticus 20 passage is another passage. Do you want to talk about Sodom?

Neil: Yes.

Mel: The story of Sodom is well explained by Ezekiel and Jeremiah and other prophets in the Old Testament and by Jesus in the New Testament. They all used that text for some of their greatest preaching. Not one of them, including Jesus and the prophet, talk about homosexual behaviors during Sodom. They are very clear, that in the ancient world, heterosexual men demeaned strangers and sent them running by abusing them sexually. And that was simply an Old Testament practice, an ancient Middle Eastern practice to demean and dehumanize with gang rape. You can't imagine that every boy and man in this great Near Eastern city was homosexual or that they suddenly all run towards two strangers. So this is not condemning homosexual orientation. If it's condemning anything, it's condemning gang rape. And of course, every gay and lesbian I know would condemn it as well. Sodomites are people who demean and dehumanize strangers at the gate. Who refuse to offer their homes and their hearts for protections for people who need help and comfort in the night.

So for me, the real sodomites are people like Jerry Falwell, and Jim Dobson, and Pat Robertson, who are leaving the gay and lesbian community, Christians all, standing at the gate, and saying we don't want you here. We will not accept you or love you as brothers in Christ. I think Sodom, the story itself, is very clear in that regard.

Neil: Jesus in Matthew 25 said, "I was a stranger and you took me not in." Is that where you grabbed the title for the book, Stranger at the Gate?

Mel: Yeah, Neil, that's a very important text to me. When Jesus talked about the end times, he said there will be sheep and goats. And the ones who get in to heaven will be the ones who see strangers standing at the gate and reach out and love and accept and bring in. Right now I'm the dean of a Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, Texas, with 12,000 congregants, that are mainly lesbian and gay folks, Christians who have been kicked out of their churches, Catholic and Protestant, simply because of their sexual orientation. Not because they were immoral, not because they did bad things, but simply because they were honest about who they were. And to me, leaving gay and lesbian American Christians at the gate is the greater sin.

Neil: Couple of other quick questions, then we'll get to Rev. John Rankin, actually we need to get to commercial break, then we'll add John Rankin to the conversation here. For those just joining us, we're talking with Mel White, who is a homosexual, former ghost writer for Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and others. He has authored a book called, Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America. You talk about homosexuality in terms of its.... Well, you obviously do not classify it as a sin. You have said as much.

Mel: It's interesting, gays can be sinful, just like heterosexual folks. We have to live responsible lives, too. We have to live with integrity, too. So for me, the quality of being a gay or lesbian person, a homosexual, is not the sin. But when we misuse or abuse anyone, just like heterosexuals, we than have the trouble to deal with sin. And I think that's why in Christ, we have forgiveness and direction for living better lives next time.

Neil: What do you do with some of the New Testament passages about homosexuality?

Mel: Well, there are no New Testament passages about homosexuality. In fact, the word homosexual didn't get into any biblical text until the late forties, early fifties of our own century. Because the word homosexual isn't in the Bible. The New Testament Romans passage, for example, the first chapter of Romans, condemns sexual behaviors, homosexual and heterosexual, in ancient pagan temples in the same way I would condemn them. And the use of children, of young boys or girls in worship, as in Corinthians 6:9 and Timothy, we would condemn those behaviors, too. To use a boy in worship, prostitution, or to use a young woman, is disgusting to gay and lesbian people. So wherever the Bible talks about sexual bad behaviors, gay and lesbian Christians, all of them that I know, salute Paul for his courage and his foresight.

Neil: OK, and we're going to get some response on that issue from John Rankin in just a minute. Let me offer you one more opportunity here before we go to break, to tell us about your relationship with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Briefly, you were a ghost writer for them. You spent time with them. How do you feel about them today I guess is the first question, but also, do you hold out animosity for them? Where do you stand on that today?

Mel: I was pleased to work with Billy Graham and with Pat and Jerry and with the others as a ghost. Because where they talk about Jesus I'm proud of them, where they talk about love and compassion and grace, you know, I think they were doing the country a service. But when they began to become so political, and when the communist threat died down and they needed a new kind of enemy to raise money on. You know, you never hear them say anything negative about gay and lesbian people unless they're taking an offering. So you've gotta be suspicious as to why they're doing it.

And they're raising millions. You know Jerry and Pat and Jim Dobson, they all have bigger budgets than the Vatican. So they have to keep the cash flowing. And they found that people are so afraid and so misinformed about homosexuals that if you say nasty things about us....

For example, this crazy notion that we have some kind of agenda. Or this crazy notion that we're a threat to family values. Or this crazy notion that we abuse or recruit. All of this misinformation, quite frankly not just hyperboles and half-truths, they are lies that they tell about gay and lesbian people, that lead to discrimination and to death for us. I had to say to them, Jerry, I know that you love Jesus, and I love Jesus, too. But I can't work with a man who loves Jesus and then talks about hate. And talks about discrimination, and talks about gay and lesbian people with such misinformation. So I'm still trying to get through to Jerry and to Pat and to talk to them simply about the other side of the issue. And I'm hoping that one day they will be kind enough just to sit down and really listen and talk about the issue with me.

Neil: And with all due respect, in other words, they need to be enlightened.

Mel: I really think that we all have things to learn from each other. And at this point Jerry and Pat and the others may be sincere. But they are sincerely wrong about lesbians and gays, and especially those who are their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Neil: Do you feel that most conservative Christians hate homosexuals, hence the use of the word homophobia?

Mel: I think they say that they love the sinner but that they hate the sin. But I think that they are so afraid because they have been mislead about us that they are to the point.... I was on a talk show the other day in Seattle, Neil, where a minister used Leviticus 20 to say that gay and lesbian people in America should be killed. And when I said, who should do the killing, the churches?, he said no, we need the civil authorities to do that. That's why we need more good men of God in government. That to purge this nation of her sins we have to take that Leviticus 20 passage literally and kill gay men and lesbian women. And so, you know, whether you say they hate or they are just afraid, what I'm afraid of is that the violence and discrimination is already beginning and that we need not to as Christians fall prey to that kind of mentality.

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